Project Petaling Street Blog

I would have gladly given you the go-ahead if you've dropped me an email saying you'll be using my photo on this entry. I have dreams of making my mark in the international community but it's such a downer when you're not even credited in the local community for taking a photo of your nation's flag. The photo was originally posted here, just so that you know.

I'm penning a short story set in Sudan and Balkan. I hope you won't mind if I use snippets from your books.

Dear Zhi Xin,

I did send you an email asking for permission. However, when I got no reply, I decided only to use your image as a placeholder while I locate something else on public domain.

My mistake and I apologise.

I am not into copyrights and all that, but just out of curiosity....

Can the picture of our national flag "belong" to any individual?

The national flag is an icon, a representation of everyone who is Malaysian. It is far far more than a piece of colored cloth flying in the wind. It symbolizes, dignifies, and gives identity to all who live under, and pledge allegiance to her.

A flag is more than the sum of the people whom its represents. It is a whole unto itself, and superceeds the interests of any individual of whom it represents, because it represents the interests of all the individuals who constitute the nation.

In the context of a photo as a piece of work, John Ling may have accidentally and inadvertently used something without obtaining prior permission.

But that is no ordinary photo. It is a photo of the national flag. And that means it is a photo that represents me and you and all other Malaysians. And that should mean that if permission is needed, it should also come from all Malaysians, not just one individual.

Now, all Malaysians have the right to publish and display the national flag in an appropriate and dignified manner. Using an image in a blog article about patriotism on National Day, is certainly very appropriate and dignifid.

So, can anyone claim individual ownership of such images? Does anyone have the right to claim ownership of a living image that representds a
living nation?

Note : In any context, the national flag is a symbolic and notional entity, not a physical object.

Indeed I have to agree with Freddie's point of view, the flag in itself though is a marvelous picture (congrats to Zhi Xin) is not really the outlying message of this article. True that the article is more impactful with the picture involved, but in the end, it is just like Freddie says, an icon, a representation.

I have to agree with Freddie again that the displaying of the national flag is an action of pride towards the country and what it means to be a citizen. However, another issue arises, all pictures, whether posted here, or elsewhere, even in more professional or more prominent sites have always lack acknowledgement to its photographer. It is good that you have pointed this one out, but since the matter has been fixed, rejoice and forgive him.

However, something that I have to say Zhi Xin, that the use of the photo without acknowledgement is definitely an error and is regretable for the photographer as he spends time and definitely money to get one as perfect as your own, but a it is unfair to retalliate by taking snippets from books that is published. Though a sad but true points, there are laws regarding usages of prints taken from other sources, but there are very little existing laws regarding photoes taken from sources to be used. This is mainly due to the fact that the actual source of the photo is hard to determine (not that I am accussing you of not taking the photo from other sources) whereas the source of a written piece can be easily found from searches of style and techniques.

Sorry Zhi Xin if I sound too much against you, but what i am saying is that you are doing a great thing in pointing it out and should continue doing so, but you should also forgive John for this slip. Also, great photo and I love your other shots as well.

Perhaps I was a tad too harsh in my comment. That part about stealing snippets from John's book was meant to be sarcastic and in hindsight, it was uncalled for.

So that I don't come across as the bad guy here, I wasn't picking on John. It has been a long standing policy that the photos on my site are allowed to be used provided due credit is given.

Freddie, I cannot claim ownership to the skyscrapers in KL but wouldn't you say a nicely composed picture of them belongs rightfully to the photographer? Likewise, the flag.

John has been swift in attending to this matter and for that I thank him.

Zhi Xin, I think it is only fair that whatever the content of any photo, due credit should be given to the photographer to capturing the image. The act of capture is by itself, a value-added effort that has to be acknowleged.

But does that mean that the photo itself belongs to the photographer ?

On one extreme, eg. of a nicely composed photo of some buildings against a beautiful sky or close-up shots of flowers, butterflies, etc. These images should obviously belong to the photographer.

On the other extreme however, if you take a photo of me at some dinner or function, who owns the image? Do I not have the right to determine how that photo is used? The photographer definitely must be given credit for taking then photo, but that is different from owning it, right?

Hence the same with a photo of the national flag. Or am I wrong about this?

Sorry for the deviation from the topic. Just rather curious, given that the context of the image (of the flag) on national day, seems a little different from other images.

Making you the subject of a photograph without your permission would constitute an invasion of privacy and you could sue me for that (not so if you're only a bystander). Notice that I use skyscrapers to bring my point across and not a person or a single building. I do admit the issue on ownership of photographs of the national flag is somewhat fuzzy and it's a good thing you've brought it up. From what I've gathered, flags are not protected by copyright but there are seperate laws governing the use of them. Where are the lawyers when we need one?
Anyhow, it's only out of courtesy to seek permission before using any photos, whether or not the law favours the photograher. For a general guideline (not sure if it applies in Malaysia), visit http://www.zvulony.com/photograph_rights.html

Post has been plugged on Merdeka Blogger.

Happy Merdeka-ing!

Copyright ownership of photos belongs to the photographer period. The law isn't so fuzzy. Check out all the stock photo sites out there, you can't just use the photos without getting permission or paying for it.

I can take a picture of you without your permission for my private personal use, if you are in public, and the photo belongs to me. If I want to use that photo commercially then I need your permission to do so but the photo always belongs to me regardless.

How else do you think stock photographers make money? By selling certain rights to be used in certain situations for the photos they own.

John, what you did is plagiarism, no matter how you look at it. You said you wrote to Zhi Xin asking for his approval and getting no response from him, you went ahead. That’s wrong, and dumb. You used somebody’s work (never mind whether it’s a photograph, a piece of essay, even an idea) and tried to pass it off as your own. For writer wannabes like yourself, that’s Cardinal Sin No 1. Morally and ethically, that’s cheating. Legally, in the worst possible scenario, the originator of the article can sue you in court and before the court awards damages, the court can ask you to declare how much you have made from using the plaintiff’s work, then award financial compensation to the plaintiff based on how much you have benefited from it. Did I say that was the worst scenario? There’s worse. Nobody will want to read anything you write because you have been caught plagiarizing and your integrity has been compromised. Good though that you apologized.

Yeah, carelessly using a photo is definitely a cardinal sin. What the heck, it's worse than murder! It's henious. It's sacrilegious, especially on national day. It..... demands a faith worse than death!

Throw him to the lions. No, better still, throw him to the lawyers!

Geeez....

Yes, I have failed to live up to the standards of utmost integrity and honesty. I will be tendering in my resignation as a PPS blogger as soon as possible

I hope this should be sufficient for all of you.

Thank you.

I'll bet that all those people who talk so much about plagiarism, have a few pirate DVDs in their possession.

John, Don't let a fishy fatwa get te better of you.

No worries, Freddie. :)

If my integrity is in question, then I shall gladly step down and let someone else with greater integrity step up to the plate.

No hard feelings.

To both john ling, chiefly, and Odds&Ends, secondly:

you are too hArsh on thyself.

When the breach was pointed out, you apologised and it's up to the original photographer -- to decide whether to deem that apology good enought to LET IT BE>

I too have taken one line from a blgger's page, but I attributed it to her, not realising it was some other authority. So am I third party guilty by association.

There is such a thing as "intent" to decide "guilt" -- reading John Ling's several messages here, I conclude there was no "malicious intent", so I urge Odds&Ends, LET IT BE! To "fishtail", I think you're overly, okay amend that to, a mite, harsh on that verdict!

I enjoy John Ling's writings (via yvonnefoong's blog by leisurely surfing ...), let's give our YoungOnes more leevay than those Bloody Politicians, wriers are a speciall breed to me, a fellow writer, I hope we all live up to that PASSION in us, esp poet-aspirants or "plagiarist-poets?" because sometimes our verses resemble eash others?)

LET IT BE, my fave group, the beaTLES, as samll as beetles as can be, but TOWERing to me, small as a bee.

I seldom post here, because I never saw the need to do so.

Not going to take any sides here since I'm usually rather neutral regarding everything. Just keep myself as emotionally detached as possible while doing things that can serve my self-interests. However, to resign from PPS just because you committed one mistake is ridiculous.

Making mistakes make you human. Or is this part of 'patriotism'? That we have to adhere so much to the so called values that we aren't allowed to make mistakes and that when we make ONE, we have to get into some self-inflicted punishment? Let's perform seppuku together then.

Devoting yourself to what is 'set in stone' by the founding fathers is one thing, but not everything. Whether you really intend to leave is your choice, I'm not going to beg you to stay like some, neither will I cheer when you're gone, like some. I've always been neutral. Unmoving, perpetually serene like the surface of a pond, languid like a swaying tree feeling the morning breeze. Blah blah blah.

And what is 'a man of greater integrity'? Too subjective. Or was that meant to be sarcasm?

John Ling: "Hah! Whine and whingie, thy fools, I shalt step down and let someone with greater integrity to take over, *snorts* if you can find one!"

or

John Ling: "*sob* *sniff* I've shamed myself. I will resign. I will step down and let someone with greater integrity to take over my place."

Yeah, I'm evil. But this is the Internet. Different people have different ways to interpret words they see on the computer screen. Thus vastly different reactions and responses tend to occur during incidents like this. Difficult to say who is right or who is wrong.

It is all a matter of priority.

Over the last few years, many unkind comments have been thrown my way. But I gladly tolerated them and continued to push on in order to achieve something as an author.

And I have.

So these days, I try to be kinder to myself. If someone comes along to spoil my fun, I can now choose to move someplace else where I can continue to have fun.

Quite simple, really.

Relate it to your FanFiction.net experiences, Eliar, and I think you will see my point.

Fanfiction.net? Oh, well, but instead of saying diplomatically that I wanted someone with a greater integrity to take over my place. I was more honest by saying 'fuck this shitty place, I'm going somewhere else that can serve my self-interests'. Mwaha.

Of course, you've just done that, so it's all cool. :D

Well, when you receive emails asking you to step down, it's only natural. ;)

Anyways, I will say no more. Let's consider the matter closed and move on with our lives.

Cheers!

John,

If you leave, a lot of people will remember you as a quitter.

If you stay, you will be put in the impossible position of justifying to those who want you to leave, and those who would then think you can't make up your mind.

Either way, you will be hounded because you are accessible on the web.

One small mistake, is leading up to a bigger one. Now you got be careful you don't make yet another.

Welcome to the domain of public presence!

John: Er, no, I was referring to you being honest about why you want to leave on the post above mine. :D About going to another place to have fun.

Freddie: He's not being a quitter. He's just pulling a 'hah, screw this place, want me to leave? sure thing, my pleasure', which is cool.

When a person is young and inexperienced, he has to take on whatever job that comes his way. When he is older and established, he can be more liberal with his choices.

Thus, I don't really have anything to prove to anyone. I have grown tired of going out of my way to prove things to people who don't really bother.

I will be honest. Those who truly support me will continue to support me, while those who don't support me will continue to find fault in me.

Let's leave it at that.

Anyways, let's give the matter a rest, already.

I am sure that we all have better things to do to debate the merits of my resignation, which is just an insignificant thing. :)

Cheers!

If I may, I would like to add something.

Freddie - Though you may mean well, but I find that you are fuelling fires.

Fishtail is a writer and being older and wiser are chipping in some wisdoms for the younger generation. His words may be harsh but there is some truth in it if we look at it without any emotions.

I feel that John has done a noble thing and I truly respect him.

Frankly, I feel that Aiz should have stepped in and ease the tensions between Odds and Ends and John. Him being the owner of this blog and PPS.

So, that's it.

C'mon, there's no tension between John and I. I'm sure John could tell you that through our exchange of emails. I certainly do not like to see this ends with John's resignation.

Eliar, The context of John leaving, will depend on the perception of the individual observer. Quitter, Screw this place, I am bored, etc. But then, Resign = quit, literally. Anyway, does it matter?

Lilian, Fueling the fire? Not sure what you mean, but truth be told, I can be provocative, and if you were referring to my remark about the fishy fatwa, then I will tell you that I was.

Fishtail came out of the blue with some apocalyptic discourse about the probably fate of a writer who borrow a photo of a flag, and it was not even his photo. All this about tax returns and reader boycott and all that. Sheesh! It really sounded like an improbable and impotent fatwa. Come on lah, John was sincere, and did not deserve a snide remark like that.

Let me clarify things. My decision has nothing to do with Zhi Xin (a.k.a. Odds&Ends). It's something I made on my own accord based on several factors.

Firstly, I made a mistake and I am owning up to it. It would be hypocritical to continue blogging and pretend nothing ever happened.

Secondly, I have spent several years struggling in the publishing industry. I have had my fair share of harsh obstacles and unkind comments. Today, after literally going through hell, I finally have the opportunity to see writing as a hobby rather than as a challenge. Hobbies are meant to be fun. The moment it stops being fun, I have the option not to do it.

Thirdly, something very good will come out of this. From here on out, other bloggers will be more cautious about how they source their pictures. I am doing everyone a big favor.

Lilian: Just to clarify, this issue has blown out of proportion and, yes, i wrote to both John and ZX the moment this issue came to light.

As far as the PPS Blog is concerned, professionally and legally speaking, the issue was resolved the moment an apology was offered and accepted. There isn't, and never was, any tension whatsoever between any party involved in this matter. If others want to create an artifical sense of "tension" via comments on this blog, you're welcome to (PPS is kinda like a public place, so speak your mind), but just know that no one here is obligated to respond or answer any of your questions.

As to John's decision, he is a big boy -- all of us (PPS bloggers) tried to convince him to change his mind (he has been a valuable member of the team), but at the end of the day, he knows what's best for himself, and we (you, me, everyone included) should respect his decision. Other PPS Bloggers have come and gone, John isn't the first, nor will he be the last -- everyone understood and accepted this fact when they signed up. Nothing lasts forever, even less so on the Web.

Lastly, i agree with John -- this whole experience has taught us all a valuable lesson about respecting copyrights -- that lesson on its own has been worth the price of admission, imho. So let's take away from this what positives we can, and leave all the rest to be as it is.

Well said, Aiz.

I have had a great time contributing to PPS. There are no hard feelings on my part.

I am sure that PPS will grow stronger even without me. No big loss. =)

A better blogger will no doubt take my place.